Ep 175 | K-8 together: benefits, concerns & parent feedback

SPEAKER_01 0:00

That seems like a major selling point.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Major. And not only that, a lot of kids are immature and not ready to leave elementary to go to sixth grade. So that maturation, that next year, makes a huge difference. And teachers in the elementary tend to mother and take better care. Not saying that in middle school, that's not the case. But when you have almost twice as many teachers, it's very difficult to establish that kind of rapport and relationship.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome to the Voices United in Education podcast. Each week, we showcase the teachers, administrators, and community members who go the extra mile to contribute to the success of every child in Escambia County. You'll meet the real people behind the titles and learn about the amazing resources to support your child's success. Each year in a child's life presents opportunities for significant milestones, but middle school might be considered the quantum leap in development. And since each child and each community are unique, opening up pathways for new approaches can help everyone find their own fast track to success. My next guest is the director of middle schools for Escambia County Public Schools. And today he's going to share how merging K through middle schools will impact students, parents, and teachers and what inspired these changes. Passionate about education and dedicated to student success, Escambia High School graduate, Dr. Michael Roberts.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Hello. First of all, thank you for having me here today. It gives me a great deal of honor and pleasure to talk about something that is near and dear to my heart, and that is education, public education. As the director of middle schools, in meeting with our superintendent, Mr. Keith Leonard, as well as his support staff, who are all very progressive forward thinkers, is what led to the incorporation of K through 8 schools. It was something that he presented, and as a result of us now being our second year into the schools that offer K through 8 or K through 6. And I'm not by any means speaking for anyone other than myself, that has been well received, not only by the students, but by parents of those students, as well as the administrators and staffs at those schools.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

I love that. So which schools are kind of a part of that merger?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Right, as we presently speak, we have Longleaf Elementary, which will be and is currently in the process of becoming our first K through eight school. We have Cordova Park and West Pensacola, two elementary schools, which now are K through sixth grade. And then next year, Pensacola High School will have a middle school honors program where they will start in accepting seventh and eighth graders, and they will be housed totally isolated from the 9th, 10th, and 11th and 12th grade students there at Pensacola High School.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Was there anything special about these schools that made them ideal candidates for this type of arrangement?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

I think when the superintendent made the choices of the schools that would, for lack of a better word, would be the pilot schools or schools that offered a different type of diversity and also had leaderships, not saying that strong leaders are not at the other schools, but thinking forward administrators that were willing to take on the nuances and the newness of incorporating it.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, and you have to have bandwidth. Every time you change things up, you have to feel grounded in what you got going on and believing in what could be possible in order to try that new thing out.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

That is the success of the new ideas.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yes. So I'm sure you've had some pushback along the way. How are you addressing, for example, parent safety concerns around having the K through eight, the five-year-olds in the same building as the 13-year-olds?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Well, one of the things the schools did do, there was discussion before it was put out there and implemented. There were meetings held at the schools to generate interest and to hear those concerns from parents and to offer them reassurance that what we were trying to do was in the best interest of all students and that safety was at the forefront of everything. And when we talk about pushback, when parents were made aware of the how-to, and this is the approach that we're going to use. I personally, as the director of middle schools, have not had a phone call to this day where there was a parent disappointed or afraid to try something new.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

So, what were the how-tos that helped the parents feel at ease?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Classes would be smaller. We would have an opportunity to build stronger relationships with sixth graders remaining in elementary school. And that greater participation has been asked of parents. Parental involvement is a key to all of that. When parents see that it's safe, they communicate that to their friends, their family, and other members of the community. And it's good PR. We have done that and continuously solicit input from parents. Kids are at the elementary level. They are somewhat in a different area of the school. And a lot of those kids were there in fifth grade. So the parents were very comfortable of those that stayed and did not move on and transition to the traditional middle school.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

So what other kind of benefits or features are possible because of this type of arrangement?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Well, like I said earlier, was there are smaller classes. Teachers have the kids longer. There's less transition, wherein in middle school, kids could have six or seven teachers. And in the K through eight or K through six, it's half that number of teachers.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

That's really major. Because I've heard other parents complaining about the multiple teachers thing. And, you know, as a non-parent, I lean in because I'm like, well, tell me about this. What is that? Why is it stressful? So just knowing that that seems like a major selling point.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Major. And not only that, a lot of kids are immature and not ready to leave elementary to go to sixth grade. So that maturation, that next year, makes a huge difference. And teachers in the elementary tend to mother and take better care. Not saying that in middle school, that's not the case. But when you have almost twice as many teachers, it's very difficult to establish that kind of rapport and relationship.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

That's true. It does kind of become a part of the transition into the adult world, even though it's so hard to think of like they're so little still. Yes. To think like you're transitioning into the adult world. But having an environment that's less like a daycare and it's more like, I hate to say like a workplace, but kind of like that. A little bit more like, okay, you gotta hold up your end of the bargain and this is what we're doing next, and remember the plan and come prepared. And it's all part of the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

All of that. All of that. And so far this year, parents have been very pleased with their choices of keeping their child in elementary one year longer. And we're hoping it'll be the same case when they're seventh and eighth grade as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Tell me about the mental health resources. That was something I was particularly interested in.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yes. We have a contracted service, a provider, and it's all virtual by grade level. Each mental health video or lesson is geared towards age appropriate. There's one for sixth grade, seventh grade, fifth, whatever grade that child is in. And they watch those. And if there's always a guidance counselor available, if there's something discovered as a result of a child watching a video, and even mental health counselors are in the schools to help to bring about extra support when kids need it. The class, the courses are basic and well done. Well done.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

That's so important to me because especially in those middle school years, that's when we see, especially in boys, we see like a big transition. They're little friends and the bonds that they had may not survive that for lots of different reasons, but that's when we see a lot of loneliness and different behaviors. So to be able to have those extra resources is not only major within itself, but what I'm picturing here, tell me if I'm wrong, sure, is that I imagine the culture of the school becomes different when that conversation is regularly had.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

It fosters caring, nurturing, respect, and you can tell when you're implementing it to fruition. It has a positive impact. It opens up the doors for kids to know that they're not alone. There's someone we're here. We're that someone. We're here to help you if there's a need. There is a resource. So the program that we have in place has proven to be very successful, and kids can talk with you about what it is we provide in those mental health areas.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Oh, that's powerful.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

What about the teacher response? What does a K through eight scenario mean for the teacher?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Well, the teacher, they have fewer students, and they may teach multiple subjects. But they, and I'm basing this on our two years now in. This is our second year. They it's easier to communicate with parents, it's easier to establish a positive rapport, greater parental involvement, and those teachers that are involved tend to be those teachers that truly are teachers.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah, who really truly care beyond the classroom and the getting good marks.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

They teach as though those are their biological children.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah. Do you happen to know any insight into what inspired Mr. Leonard to make this sort of change? I mean, because you know, in other states, different counties do it differently. So I myself was in some sort of school that had, it wasn't K through eight, but you know, it was pretty close. And so I didn't know that wasn't normal. And so I'm thinking about the listener who isn't oriented to either of these. And I'm hoping that you can give insight into what makes leadership go, okay, this is the right experiment for this scenario.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Once again, I'd like to have a disclaimer.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

I can't answer for him, but I've known Mr. Leonard for quite some time.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

So I'm very comfortable in giving you an answer. I think his travels, I think in growing to be an awesome superintendent and having seen what works in other counties, as I said earlier, he's very forward with his thinking. And he saw something along with the school board representatives that is working in other counties that we could benefit from. And he's a progressive superintendent. And we can't always do what we've always done. Times have changed. Parents have more choices. And doing it, I think, gives us an edge over keeping some of our middle schoolers in public school as opposed to losing them to private and private schools.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, or even if it's temporarily and then put back into.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

And also think the pros outweigh the cons. I think that there are more studies that support K through eight. And we're all about doing and growing and doing that which is best for kids.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Do you know anything about those studies?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

I'd love to I can't reference names of them, but yes, ma'am, there are studies, and I can provide at a later date those studies, but I do know some of the results of those studies.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yes, share those.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Studies have shown that having kids, sixth graders in elementary makes it a lot easier for them to transition when they are able to go on to middle school because of the maturity level, especially with young men. Girls tend to mature a lot faster. They transition a lot quicker, sooner. The small student-teacher ratio in doing the K through six or K through eight, kids are able to get more individualized help. And we're talking Gen Ed, not just 504 students or kids with an IEP, ESE, or whatever the case may be, that war that demands certain things or that are required. The Gen Ed students and all students in a smaller setting, the students themselves tend to become more family-oriented, tend to show more compassion and look out for each other. There are studies that show that kids have fewer problems with behavior in smaller classes, lunch, and then also with K through eight, as I said earlier, there's less movement, less transition. And the less movement and transition, the less behavioral problems. Teachers are better able to focus and plan, and their plans are more individualized because having 10 or 15 kids as opposed to 27 or 30, you really get to know your kids and your instructions can be more differentiated.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

I mean, this is almost maybe it's because of my own background in this sort of setup. It feels like old school a little bit, you know. Have you received that feedback before?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

I have. I have, I have. Especially from those parents who had that experience. And those are the ones that tend to come forth when we're asking, you know, it's open enrollment, it's time, are you gonna keep your kid here? Those parents seem to be the ones that went to schools that offered what they're now looking for.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

So you mentioned parent choice. Yes. Talk to me more about what parent options are for Escambia County.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Parents now can go to school choice and request that their child is able to attend a school out of their attendance zone. And that could be because I want my child at a K28, the school around the street in my attendance zone does not offer that. Or older kids, high school, a language that is offered at this school that is not offered at that school, or for other reasons, parents can pretty much choose where they want their child to attend, but there's a process.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

And so far, the parent feedback has been good?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Totally. I would say better than good. It's been positive. And I've had a couple of parents to reach out to me asking, when will the school in their neighborhood, their attendance zone, become a K through six or K through eight?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

That's pretty good for only two years. I feel like the good word is spreading then.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

And each school that I've spoken with or either visit with that is a K through eight or whatever, parents have asked me, and in visiting those schools, parents have said, Well, what is your opinion? What did you think? And of course, my feedback to them has been all positive. But where I was going with my train of thought with that is parents want what is best for their kids. And I think we're moving in that direction with the K through eight and K through six.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

What do you think people misunderstand the most about middle schools since you are literally the director of middle schools for the county?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

There's a big fear of parents don't let go very easy. Now, in high school, they do, but in middle school, they're still there, and these are still their little darlings. There's this fear because most of our middle schools are large. 800, 900, two of them have a thousand. Wow. And there's that fear of safety. And social media has kind of contributed to that. But we're trying to dispel that by communicating with parents and opening the doors of the schools.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah. And cell phone use has also changed. So that's a tremendously.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

There was a fear that there would be a great deal of pushback from parents. But once we re-educated them and reminded them, we still have telephones. You know those strange things that are hooked to a cord and they're they have a landline. We still have those. And your child will always have access to a phone in case of an emergency. I know we're early into school, but we have had a tremendous decrease in problems because of the restraints and the new rules that govern phones and how and when we can use them. And not a parent has called and complained.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Oh, I love that. I love that. Yes. I think it's so neat to see all of the ingredients that come together to help students with their success. Yes. Because it's not always what you think. And especially if you're coming from a different generation, maybe even like two generations ago, like if a grandparent is raising a child, then they might not even be aware of what ingredients they need. And sometimes the ingredient is removing an ingredient.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yes. Now we're dealing with kids that know not. They only know cell phones and technology. And it's a lifeline. But we are finally getting to the point of they're realizing they can breathe and live without a cell phone.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

And it has actually a little bit more peace. So I love that the leadership team is looking outside of Escambia County and saying what's working here and here. And that this K through eight arrangement is part of it, that the cell phone adjustment is a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

I did want to ask you though, as we wrap up, because your history, you've worked all kinds of grade levels, elementary, middle, high school. You've been a principal, a juvenile justice probation officer, a counselor, a dean, a teacher, and work dropout prevention. I mean, that's a lot of things. Why be the director of middle schools?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Well, can I really be honest with you?

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Of course you can.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

All of my experience has led me to where I'm at now. I'm honored to be the director of middle schools. Because of all of the experience that I have, I'm going to one day be good at being a director of middle schools, but I thoroughly enjoy it. It was an invite that resulted in the end to my advantage. Working as a middle school director has been one of the most rewarding jobs. This is my fifth year in it. There's still time and room for growth and improvement, but I feel as though I'm making a difference. And I'm in all of my schools at least once a week. The local ones, when I say local, um, excluding Ernest Ward. I'm in Ernest Ward once a week, at least, if not twice. But all the other ones, the other seven, at least twice a week. I have good rapport with my principals, boots on the ground, and I used that before the song came out. I just feel as though you make a difference out in the field. And they're learning because a lot of my principals have been middle school principals longer than I've been a middle school director. So I'm receptive to their input and their feedback. But we have a great middle school team.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Well, that's incredible. I'm excited about what's next. And thank you so much for coming and sharing.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Thank you. My honor.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe and share. Voices United in Education is a production of Escambia County Public Schools.