Ep 174 | After graduation, what’s next for students with disabilities?

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's been an amazing experience. I always look at it. When we first began this journey, it was what if? And now we're at the stage where it's what's next. And the district extended program has given us that pathway because even being in this department and in this profession, it opened up a whole new world for me to see what happens after graduation. What do we do? How do we manage?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to the Voices United in Education podcast. Each week we showcase the teachers, administrators, and community members who go the extra mile to contribute to the success of every child in Escambia County. You'll meet the real people behind the titles and learn about the amazing resources to support your child's success. Parents juggle a lot. They worry a lot, and they plan for the future the best they can. For parents with children with disabilities, the juggling, worry, and planning can look different, and it's a lot. My next guests are part of a program offering resources and hope. One is the program specialist for the district extended program, supporting parents through their child's education and supporting the child into the early years of their young adulthood. The other is the district resource teacher for pre-K through adults and a parent of a child with a disability. Today they're sharing the details of this program and the power of perspective for what's available and what's possible. Bridge builders, resource matchmakers, and purpose pioneers, Pam Sabula and Stacey Shellnut. Thanks for being here, ladies. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. So as I was learning about the district extended program, I kind of was getting the vibe that it's like having a village of aunties who put all the pieces together. How on track am I? Am I getting there?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

You are very on track for getting there. The district extended program is set up for students to provide programs for after high school. Students with disabilities 18 to 22 can graduate from high school, defer their diploma, and stay a part of the public school system until age 22. They come in to our program. We work on specific skills like job training, some of the life skills that they may not have developed yet, and prepare them for what happens after high school.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

See, I just love that because that's like the extra help. Stacey, you know, as a parent of a child with a disability, there's just extra things to think about. Those extra planning aspects, extra considerations, and those require extra resources. So I think it's so cool that you get to be a part of all of this as someone who now gives as well as receives.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

It is. It's been an amazing experience. I always look at it. When we first began this journey, it was what if? And now we're at the stage where it's what's next. And the district extended program has given us that pathway because even being in this department and in this profession, it opened up a whole new world for me to see what happens after graduation. What do we do? How do we manage? So it's definitely been a rewarding experience for our family.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

And you worked for the school system prior to knowing about this program, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yes. I've been in the district for almost 28 years. Wow. In the special education department for the last 10. But I just found out about this program two years ago as my son was getting ready to graduate because we were at the point of what's gonna happen? What does he do now? And found out about this program. And it was amazing. And I'm so excited to be able to share with other parents that are at this point to say this is an amazing program. And talking to other parents at an event last week and hearing their excitement to see that their students and their children, because they are our children, just with the agencies and the department that that are united to bring them together to show them these are possibilities.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So, what was your reaction when you found out about the program? Were you immediately all in, or was there any hesitancy on your part?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

We were very excited because we were looking for things that my son could do. He did OJT at high school with the Goodwill program and loved it. And we wanted to give him skills, not only for job skills, but for life skills, something that he may find an interest in that was solely his and that he could take ownership of. So when we found out about the programs, we were right on it. And it is the village of aunties that have built his love for what he's doing right now. Oh, what is he doing right now? He is currently in the culinary program at Georgetown. Oh. They have a coffee cart and they make goods and deliver and sell, and they run the cart, they clean and teaching him all kinds of skills that he uses at home.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

The students at Georgetow attending the college there will come and purchase ramen noodles or Totina's pizza or coffee or hot chocolate or soda or chips. But every single day they're running the cart. At the end of the week, they sell the cookies that they've made, and they really have a world-famous peanut butter cookie. Well, shoot.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I feel like we are missing out to visit.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Well, and what's to me a wonderful example of what they're doing with the culinary program is they take the funds that they earn selling their products and they plan, shop for, and prepare a meal for the Ronald McDonald House.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Okay. So they take their meal to the families that are staying there. Their children, of course, are undergoing some significant problems of their own. That's why they're staying at the Ronald McDonald House. And the group takes in their food, serves the families, hangs out with them. So not only are our students learning how to budget, how to plan, how to cook, but they're offering a community service as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Wow. And Stacy was saying that her son found out about it just before graduation. Is that normal timing or should it start earlier? What does that normally look like?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

We really start talking about it earlier. Families don't always fully understand what it means until we get closer to it. Well, let's unpack that a little bit. What do they not understand? Okay, so we start when a child comes to us in child mind at the pre-K level, talking about post-secondary outcomes. Every decision that we make today will have something to do with your post-secondary outcome. What are the standards that we're teaching? Are we teaching you a modified curriculum or are we providing resources for you to be in a general education type course? Okay. As we get to middle school, we start talking about transition. What are you interested in doing after graduation? What are your plans? What is the path? Are you a go-to-college student? Are you a student who will maybe go to trade school? Is that not for you? If those are not your plans, what are your plans and what are the things that you would like to do? We do interest inventories with them and we start writing that into their educational plan, what they are interested in doing. As we get to high school, usually 10th grade, ninth or tenth grade, Stacy mentioned that her child participated in OJT. OJT is a part of the district extended program. We work together. His class was a part of the program we run at Goodwill. And our students receive goods that people are donating. They literally unpack them, they hang them up, they price them, they're a part of helping them get ready for sale. They work in the store. So some of our high school students begin participating alongside us at that age. Okay. That's when we start having the conversation about what do we do next? Are you a student that we're going to transition with help to an agency? Are you a student who may come to work in our program and do a program that is called Project Search? Or are you better suited for one of our campus activities, like the horticulture program or the culinary program or the environmental services program? We even have some of our students who serve in an elementary school. They do a school-based enterprise. So there's a variety of different opportunities so that students have the opportunity to explore options. Stacy's young man was a part of the horticulture program last year, and I loved hearing about his day. He was not a huge fan of the heat. So I completely understood what, you know, he is much better suited for the culinary program, but he didn't know that going into it, right? He was able to learn to use a hoe, how to use a shovel, how to dig plants, how to water plants. You know, what's the appropriateness of all of that, which he had not done prior, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:44

I love that. I like that you're talking about putting the student in the center of these decisions once they are farther along in their schooling. Why is that important?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

We teach children. Remember, I talked about back in pre-K, learning to self-advocate, being able to say, This is what I need. I need help. I need more time. Could somebody read this to me? We begin at a very young age teaching them to ask for help, to let people know what their needs are, so that they're prepared to do that when there isn't somebody there to micromanage their day. Because you're not always going to have your mom there saying, make sure you get your shoes on. If you're not able to tie your shoe, you need to be able to communicate to who is there to help you do that. Okay. And that's just a very simple example. But we want students to find value in the work that they do. We want them to feel success. And just like we like to do stuff that we enjoy for our work, we want our young adults to be able to do that. What is their purpose? What is the next step? That's what we do with our regular education students when they graduate from high school. What's your plan when you leave us? And so we help not only students, but we help families get connected to the resources that they need to be able to do those things.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Is that hard from a parent perspective, Stacey, to let go of some of that oversight and control? Because parents of typical children struggle with it. And I imagine that that dynamic could be amplified when there's special needs involved.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

It is. And I very much had too, and Pam has been a rock for this for our family. Trying to juggle what's best or what you believe is best for your student, and actually just handing them over to say he's yours right now. But we fully have had an amazing support team from that very first day at pre-K. We've had the privilege to be a part of the school district system from that very first pre-K meeting until next May when he leaves.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Stacy is a great example. She's worked in the school system, she understands the schoolwork system, but she is a parent. And when it's your child making these decisions, it's sometimes difficult. And what I've always loved about Stacy is we've been able to have hard conversations, conversations that aren't always easy. It's not always easy to say, something's not quite right here. Something is going on that I need some guidance or some suggestions. What Stacy was willing to do was to listen, and I hope she doesn't mind I share this when it was time for her son to transition to high school. They were really struggling with what that looked like here. They were sending their child from a very safe classroom at middle school. And I knew her personally. I would have had the same conversation with her as a parent. I was able to be just a little bit more direct in my words when I said to her, it's time for him to go. You have to let him go. He has learned what he needs to do. He can do this. There are supports around here.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

That's the anti-protocol. You have to perspective.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

You have to trust, believe in him, which they have always believed in him. But you have to know that he can do this and let him go. And is he going to struggle? Are there gonna be hard times? Yes. That's true of any adult. And we want them to have those exposures and those experiences when they're still living with us, when we still are the parent, or they have the guidance of a strong set of teachers or pair of professionals to support them.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah. So, Stacey, who's eligible to participate in the program?

SPEAKER_01 13:39

In the district extended program.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

It's any student any student with an IEP is able to stay from 18 to 22. They must defer their diploma, which means they graduate, they walk across the stage with their peers, but instead of taking receipt of that diploma, the school holds on to it so that they can continue to participate in public school, which is the district extended program. And until their 22nd birthday, they can stay with us. Now, once they turn 22, that doesn't mean in November you turn 22, you leave us. We let you complete the school year. So some of them leave us mid-23, some of them turn 23 before they actually exit.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

So that's kind of like the legal workaround of how they can stay in the school system, if you will. Correct. As opposed to, you know, oh, you're 18, off you go. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

And that's a huge part of the self-determination and self-advocacy that we work with the students when they're 11 years old, is we start bringing them into their meetings with their parents and we make them a part and we explain. And it's been a privilege to be a part of these meetings as a district and as a resource teacher to hear the communication that the parents are with the student and say, we want you to be able to say, This is what I need, and having the career changes and the laughs about when they all want to live in Europe and things such as that, but it makes a difference. And it also makes a difference going back to what you asked before of being able to let them go is because you have a team. We were able to sit at a table and with our team with our son, and I wasn't a district employee, I wasn't a teacher down the street, I wasn't the resource teacher, I was the mom. That was not my wheelhouse. My wheelhouse was I'm the mom. I'm trusting and believing and having faith that what we're doing as a team is what's going to be best for my son. And our family agreed, and that's how we always work. Were those conversations hard? Did we always agree? Of course not. Because again, I was the mom. I knew what was best for him at home, but you're with him, you're helping him grow, you're giving him the tools that I can't give him during the day, the education and the encouragement. One of my favorite videos is we were doing homework one night and he finished and he did his little chant. We are proud of you. Say we are proud of you. That came from his third grade teacher. And he said it and he loved it and he still loves it. That memory stuck because they gave him that. His team gave him that. We are still close with almost every one of those team members because they are his village. And I'll tell him, Pam knows it too. Once you're in our village, you're in our village. It doesn't stop with a year. It doesn't stop at the end of this class or the end of this job. The horticultural program is right across from the culinary program, and they've shared how exciting it is for them to see my son make new friends and watch them grow. I think they ran into one of the hair professionals at the fair last night. So it truly is. And that's what I always encourage parents. I've had the privilege to be in these pre-K meetings now all the way through on both sides and say, believe in them. We are here. And especially talking to the teachers and the admin as well. Is you have to be united. Is it always going to be easy? No, that's their child. You have to get past, and as Pam said, unpacking those different stages. It's that what if because the unknown is scary. But you have to feel heard. You have to feel supported. And you build that trust in those relationships. And that's what I've been so blessed to be able to see from every angle and to be able to tell the parent, the therapist, the teachers.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

We have a student in the district extended program that's going to leave us this year. He has been very clear that he knows that this is his last year. And he has shared with the teacher that he plans to talk to Ms. Pam because she's going to make it where he can stay longer. And we have had multiple conversations that he's ready to go. But I think about him often because he is a young man that came into our program not ready for what happened after high school. He received his diploma. His grandma decided that they were going to defer the diploma. One of my roles as the program specialist for district extended program is I also am the principal of the program. And this young man got into some trouble with some other young men. And the short of the story is they were bringing vapes to school. They had a very hard time understanding that they were 18 years old. They could purchase a vape in the community and it was legal. Why is it not okay for us to have this vape at school? Okay. He was also a young man who liked to wear his pants below the belt line without a belt. Okay. He came to school because it was going to be a good time. And he realized very quickly that that's like this guy already. He realized really quickly that we were going to have a good time, but we were going to follow the rules. And the first time I spoke to the young men about, you know, we're not allowed to do this, there was a punishment associated with we had to uh okay, good. That we went away. We came back and there was another incident and another vape. And this young man was a young man who does have a significant cognitive disability. He said, Miss Pam, I don't understand the problem. I only had the vape on the school bus. And I said to him, Well, I said, let's think about this. You're on a school bus, which is school district property, which is associated with school. It's bringing you to school. You cannot have that. And I can still see his face all grumbled up and not very happy. I said, I don't want to call your grandmother and explain to her that you have brought this vape to school. And he looked at me, he goes, Oh no. You know, he did not want me to call his grandmother either. I said, So that's it. And I said, Now let's talk about your pants. I said, We've got to have our pants. We're gonna wear a belt every single day. I said, I do not want to see your britches. I don't care what's on your britches. You are a grown man, that's not appropriate. And the very hard talk to him like my own child. He came back about a week later, there was another pants hanging down, not doing what he's supposed to do. And I said to him, I said, Look, we're at the end. You're out of chances. Just laid it out very hard that we're done. I'm not going to allow this. I put on my very firm, tough, not very pleasant face and read him the right act. And he looked at me and he said, Miss Pam, please, please don't kick me out. I don't have anywhere else to go. Please let me stay. And that was the turnaround. I went into my firm but kind and said, Okay, here's the deal. You are going to not bring a backpack. You're going to empty your pockets when you get here. You are going to have on a belt every single day. You're going to have brushed your hair and your teeth prior to coming to school. Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. And I said, We're going to follow up. And we did. We spent the year following up. He was very excited about his birthday. One year he was going to use birthday money to buy food from the culinary program next door. So I made a deal with him. I said, if you do this, I'm going to give you money to purchase off the food court. So we made a deal, and he was so excited about this small amount of money I gave him. But the next day after his birthday, he wrote me a thank you card. So he had learned. Okay, I received a gift. It's appropriate for me to write you a thank you card. Reports to me regularly about his behavior. When I tell you he is a success story, I saw him a couple weeks ago at an event. They were doing interviews with practice mock interviews. And he came in his outfit that was nice pants and a little short sleeve button-up shirt, belt on. And he was very impressed to show me that he had on a belt. He was well groomed, prepared, and ready to go. And it brought a tear to my eye because I thought, hmm, there are some days where it is rough to do this, right? Not everybody is always happy with everything that we do, but it's very rewarding to see the fruits of your labor. When I'm at Baptist Hospital and I see one of our students running the phlebotomy cart, going to the different floors, picking up the samples. When I see our students providing a meal for the Ronald McDonald house, that is the win. That is us truly providing the resources that our students need so that every child can indeed make a difference.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I love that. And I want to ask you, Stacy, about your parent perspective in a second, because I feel like this so beautifully illustrated the potential of what's possible. I feel like we're at the table of perspectives this morning. Can you tell me if you were to give a list of the skill sets that you work to impart in students as they make their transition into adulthood, what would that list be? It's a great list.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Okay. And it comes from a variety of we want to teach them about banking. We teach them the difference between a savings account and a checking account, the credit union versus a commercial bank. That if you have a balance in your account, that is a hard thing for students who don't have a disability to understand. And even adults, we know we have a lot of adults who don't quite understand that, right? We teach them the appropriateness of about what you wear to work. For the horticulture program, you're going to wear work clothes, work boots, you're going to have gloves. For the culinary program, you're going to wear an apron. You're going to wear gloves. You're going to wear a hairnet if that's what you need to do. We are going to continue to practice that advocating. If this is a job you are working, you have to clock into your job. You have to clock out of your job. You have to communicate with your boss who is your teacher. You have to let them know I'm not going to make it in today because I'm not feeling well. I have a dentist appointment on Friday. I won't be here to make the coffee. Okay. So we're teaching them those skills. We're teaching them skills about how to talk to people and interact and appropriateness. What is the right way to communicate with your boss? Right. The language that you use with your classmates looks different than the language you're going to use with your employer. One of my favorites, and this is something I think we can all appreciate and learn, is you don't have to love every aspect of the work that you do. Yes, it's fun to stir those cookies and scoop them into little balls, but we still have to clean the dish afterwards. We have to wash it with soap and water, right? So some of those tasks are not fun, but we teach them those types of skills. So are we still doing your basic reading and writing? Yes, we still do those type of activities as well, but we're really bringing on life skills that not everybody learns naturally. They have to be explicitly taught.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So here's my question for you as a parent, Stacey, because this is such a fabulous list, right? It's so exciting. You can let yourself think about the future again. I love how you beautifully said it's not about what now, it's okay, now what's next? Like, what's the future look like? But how would you respond to a parent who feels like all of this is just like kind of false hope that it might be better to resign to what they consider the facts of their situation?

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Again, it's their potential. And if my son decides not to pursue culinary as a career or horticulture as a career, he has something that he can do that's his own. He can go and volunteer at our church or help our family when we have events. It's something that belongs to him. And even if it's small, that's what I tell parents, especially in these meetings, they have the potential. They have someone to believe in them. And that's what's so beneficial about the program is yes, these are students and they're students with disabilities, but they're adults. And they talk to them like adults and say, This is what you need to do. This is how we're going to do it, because they need to understand it and they grasp that. So again, that goes with trusting that parent to say they have the potential. And so many times these students are bound by what they can do. And again, it's that parent of wanting to control and wanting to do everything for them, giving them the things that make them independent. Will my son live with us for a long time? Absolutely, he may, and that's okay. But he can thrive and he can be on his own within that, however, if he chooses to go live or how he spends his life, he has those skills that make him independent. And it is hard. And it is giving up a little bit of that. It's not always gonna be rosy, there are gonna be tears, but give them the chance. And I encourage the parents, look at it, go. Again, we didn't know, we heard all these wonderful things. But when I can walk in and see the plant cell that those students have grown those plants from the very beginning of the year, and you go and you talk to them, and they're wheeling and dealing, and they're this is it. We do laugh. The joke at our house is he's the grilled cheese master at the culinary cart. And if anyone asks, would you make me a grilled cheese? Those are for selling. So he knows he's he's got it going on it. And we laugh, but he owns that and he wants to, and you'll ask him, What do you want to do? I want to work here, and if he has some little job, I want him. That's gonna be scary for us too. That's the what's next. And that's that step. But I know he has those skills.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

I think too that if Stacy were presented with some ideas about things that her son would be able to do, or if he were to say, Hey, mom, I'd like to try to be a greeter at the Blue Oahoos, she is now willing to listen to that and see the potential and the possibilities that maybe she didn't understand before because of what he was exposed to in the program.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

So there's almost this like latent effect of not just the obvious support and the obvious skills that are presented, but this like beautiful side effect for parents to feel the fear and do it anyway, and to see like, okay, we have dignity. This is a gift. I need to let my child have this peace. This has been such an amazing conversation, ladies. I so appreciate this. What a great program. I hope people find out about it much earlier so that they can take advantage of it. Just one question before we wrap up is having Stacy as a teacher, a parent of a child with disability and a research teacher, it's like the rarest trifecta of a gift. I feel like someone in a leadership position could be given. What have you learned by having her on your team?

SPEAKER_02 30:04

I think it's always important when you have somebody who is actually living the work that you're doing. She has experienced a child with a disability and she has experiences that she can bring to the table that I can't. I don't have those experiences. I love her willingness to be vulnerable, to share those tough moments, some of her personal experiences. It's not always easy to say, this is what's going on with my student. When we're mothers, we're waiting on the arrival of our new ones. We hope that they're going to have all their fingers and their toes and that they're going to, we have a plan for what we believe is the future for them. And it can be a little bit of a gut punch when we first find out that what we imagined for our child was not what has come to fruition. What Stacy brings to the table, and I just got chills thinking about this, is she has turned her experience into great things for her child. I cannot imagine not having this young man as a part of my life. He lights up our entire building every afternoon when he comes in. And I think looking back, Stacey wouldn't ask for anything else.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I would not. And I truly believe that I would not be on this journey if it had not been for Jackson, for my son, to open doors to see that I would not have experienced. Never did I think I'd be in the special education department working with other parents. So it has definitely been the gift of him that we were given and what we've experienced. And we count it all as joy. We're all united. And he's successful and he truly is a story from that very first child find meeting. Next May, when what next? Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Stacy being in the job, meeting with parents. She works with parents who are pre-K that we've just found, being able to share her experiences, I think is more valuable than even myself, who's been doing it for many, many years, to be able to say, I understand because she truly does understand. Having her and her willingness to learn about what she doesn't know, to come to better understanding, to understand that there's going to be trials. Not everything always works the way we had hoped the first time, but it doesn't mean we're not going to come back to the table and rethink, discuss, and devise another plan.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Well, you ladies are both important pieces of this puzzle, important members of this village. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing this. I really hope that it gives the right people the hope and perspective that they need. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe and share. Voices United in Education is a production of Scambia County Public Schools.