Ep 151 | Dual Enrollment: Is it college and career hacking?

SPEAKER_02 0:00

That is first and foremost what our responsibility in K-12 system is, is to ensure that they graduate and graduate on time. So they're going to be focusing more on those gen ed courses that you need in college as well. That those gen ed courses, though, are going to also count for high school credit, thus dual enrollment, because in essence they're enrolled in high school, and in college, they're working towards their high school graduation requirements, but they're also earning those college credits.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Each week we showcase the teachers, administrators, and community members who go the extra mile to contribute to the success of every student in Escambi County. You'll meet the real people behind the titles and learn about the amazing resources to support every student's success. College scholarships are great, but free college better. Free college before graduating from high school, even better. While dual enrollment may seem like the most obvious money-saving multitask, it still brings up questions. To answer them today, my next guests are the school counseling specialist and the director of high schools. We'll be talking about student and parent readiness, what to expect, and how it all works. Champions for higher education, dual enrollment super duo, Holly Bussey and Lisa Morgan. Welcome, ladies.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Thank you. It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Do you think of yourselves as a dual enrollment superduo? Uh, have not. I do. Well, let's get some capes made and make it happen. And so I have this strange question. Have you guys heard of travel hacking? Um no? Okay, so it's where you use everyday purchases, purchases you would already be making to get credit card points so you can travel for free. I kind of feel like dual enrollment is college hacking. Ah, that's a good way to look at it. Yeah, because it's free. So that's actually my first question, Lisa, is how the heck is this free?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Well, the legislature several many years ago put in place an opportunity for our children, grades six through twelve, to participate in dual enrollment, which allows students to to, if they qualify, to take courses towards a degree. And the legislature provided the funding for that as well. So for tuition and any additional fees, they can go to college free while they're in middle school or high school. So yeah, it's a great opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

That's incredible. Is there a cap on how many students can participate per grade or per calendar year?

SPEAKER_01 2:55

No, ma'am. If they have to be college ready, and so there's an entrance exam that they take and it's reading, writing, and math. And if they're college ready, because we want them to be successful, then they work closely with the school counselor and the parents need to be involved. And so there's no limit. And you can you could actually get a four-year degree if you start early, for sure a two-year degree. But when you can start at sixth grade, you have six years to start taking advantage of that wonderful opportunity that's free. That's wild. I did not know that it started as early as sixth grade.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yes. It does, but you do have to have some high school credits. In our articulation agreements, those are the agreements between the district and the college, both PSC, UWF, and we also have articulation agreements with George Stone Technical College. But for like for PSC and UWF, specifically students in middle school have to already have three high school credits under their belt. And that's to ensure that, again, they're ready for a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

So would a sixth grader, for example, need to know what he or she wants to study vocationally? Because that's a struggle for 18-year-olds. And I'm thinking, oh my goodness, how old are you in sixth grade? Is this something they have to have already had a thought in their head about?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Well, that would help, but no, because what we're expecting them to do is they are working towards their high school graduation requirements. And that's that is first and foremost what our responsibility in K-12 system is, is to ensure that they graduate and graduate on time. So they're going to be focusing more on those gen ed courses that you need in college as well. That those gen ed courses, though, are going to also count for high school credit, thus dual enrollment, because in essence they're enrolled in high school and in college, they're working towards their high school graduation requirements, but they're also earning those college credits.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

That's so impressive. What is the life of a dual enrollment student look like? Are they going to classes after high school is done? Or do they leave high school early to go to classes?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

They can be full-time dual enrollment, or they can they typically we want them to start out with making sure this is right for them because it's so important. This is their college transcript. So although the courses also count for high school and they need to graduate, it's very important that they graduate. So we we we really focus on the making sure that they're ready and and uh moving forward with that. So their schedule, you work very closely with the school and with the counselor. The counselors, the school counselor knows their students and they want to make sure that they don't get overwhelmed. There's a lot we want them to have a regular high school experience. Many of them do extracurricular activities and things like that. So you have to learn to balance a schedule. And for those folks that have been through college, they understand that's a lot of responsibility. And again, there's your college transcript. So even in high school, if you're taking it part-time or taking one class, or you decided to go full-time, you need to make sure you're focused and you can handle that responsibility. That's very important. So that after high school as well, they'll focus on you know, getting that diploma that's important and moving on to college, and they'll have a great transcript and have saved a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Well, yeah, the money part is huge. So for a full-time dual enrollment student, they would be attending school. I'm just using these time frames as an example, from 7:15 to 3.15, and then from like 4 to 8 p.m. they're going to class? No.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

That they will during the school day. Now you can take, as we all know, you can take online courses at college. So they work on that whenever, and they'll have to possibly have to check in with the teachers and things like that. But and then there's some face-to-face still out there. So if they're full-time, they won't be on the high school campus unless they're coming on for an extracurricular activity or taking one course. But if they're full-time, they're at the college. So whether that's at home or on site, that's their schedule.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Wow. So that's really a physical transition into, I mean, kind of like adulthood then. Because are they essentially taking a virtual version of their high school classes while they're on the college campus?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

We make sure the class is align with what they need for high school graduation. So if they need four years of English, then we we are making sure those courses align with that. So that's right.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

This might be helpful. For example, student needs four credits of high school in English, right? Four English high school credits. So a student, let's say in ninth grade, they take English one, tenth grade, they take English two. In 11th grade, they could take English Composition one and English comp two. Both of those are worth one high school credit each. So that gives the student four high school credits. So with English comp one and two, they've actually earned six college credits at the same time. So that's how it works. And so a student, if they are full-time on the college campus, their schedule may look like any other college student's schedule. They may go Monday, Wednesday, Friday to two courses, and they may go Tuesday, Thursday for an additional two courses or three courses, whatever the case might be. So that's what it looks like for a full-time dual enrolled student. A student who is doing this part-time, those are the students, and again, we like students to start out slow because there's a different mindset that's involved.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

I mean, yeah, look at all the follow-up questions I'm having to ask just to understand it. It's clearly outside of the box, which I really like that. I think that's very cool, which is why I called it college hacking. But yeah, you wouldn't want a student to dive in and then have their confidence crushed because they're overwhelmed and just not just not ready. Not ready. Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

So for part-time students, a part-time student may be taking six high school classes and during the day, either they leave early from school and they go off to the campus, for example, the college campus, and take an additional one class or maybe two classes. Or we do offer some dual enrollment classes on our high school campuses as well. So a student could be at school all day, but just one of those classes, like the English comp, they're still staying on our high school campus, but they're actually taking that dual enrolled class. So again, getting the high school credit and the college credit at the same time. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

That helps a lot of it. It does. It does. And I think it helps for parents too, because if a parent what isn't familiar with dual enrollment and, you know, he or she is at their max mentally, that they have decision fatigue. They're just trying to do what all adults are trying, they're trying to adult. Adulting is hard. Yes, adulting is hard. Yes. And then you're like, wait a minute, I got to help my kid in this next stage of their lives, which is kind of in between being a kid and adulting. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about student readiness. How does a parent know if their student is ready? How does the school assess that? Because we're talking about an academic level, you know, a cognitive level, a testing ability. How well do you test? But also there's a maturity factor there. And I can't imagine the difficulty of having to assess your own child's maturity.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yes. And some parents do a very good job of that, and some parents do not. So it is difficult. It's not easy because we often think as parents, I mean, I'm a parent myself, right? I look at my kids and I think, oh, they can do this, they can do that. And you come to find out maybe years later that, well, they weren't quite ready and but they didn't say anything, right? Yeah. So it is all-encompassing, I guess, and it really is incumbent upon the school counselor, the student, and the parent to really have a good conversation to go over what the expectations are going to be for students in dual enrollment. So that, you know, everybody goes in with eyes wide open. So that's not an easy black or white. There are the the PERT test is the test that students take that is showing their readiness for college-level academics. We also can look at ACT and SAT scores, because again, those are normed on college-ready benchmarks. So clearly the testing is one factor. Their grades, however, there are alternative methods for students to be able to qualify for dual enrollment that the legislature has put into place, that they can look at previous algebra scores, previous English scores, those kinds of things. So previous scores, when I say scores, grades in their classes, the colleges can also look sometimes at that to see if that helps to show that level of readiness.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I wanted to say that we are telling students they need to learn to advocate for themselves. It's really important because you're stepping out of the world where they come to high school in the morning, they go through, you know, seven classes, we ring the bell, we do all those things when they're at the college. I mean, if they don't show up or they don't log in, and then, you know, two or three times of that, and you can get behind. And then some professors just give three test grades, and that's your grade. So that's very different from being in the six through twelve environment where we have a teacher seeing them every day or every other day if it's a block schedule. And when we see them, maybe their attendance is not good or they're struggling in something, then we intervene on their behalf to make sure that they're gonna be successful and pass the class before it's too late. We as parents. We as parents in the school district and and in the teachers. Oh, the teachers, because we'll call a conference. Parents can call a conference, but we'll call a conference. That doesn't happen at the college level. And we're teaching them that, you know, so advocating for yourself. If you get behind, if you've had something happen with your family, you had to leave town, you don't just leave town or you don't just not go. You need to make sure you're connecting with the college people that support them and help them through that. Don't just decide, okay, well, I I'm not gonna make it here, and you know, then you get the D or the F. Well, that's not acceptable on a transcript, especially on a college transcript. You have to retake the course, but it's always on your transcript. We want them to understand that if they're going on site to the college, then someone's driving them there, or they're driving themselves if they're old enough. And so sometimes they may decide, well, I just don't feel like going today. Well, you know, at school that can happen, but you know, we're on top of that if it's a pattern or something. So the counselors are phenomenal. Our school district counselors are great in having relationships with those students and work following up with them, but it's still on the student. In the end, it's on the student to make sure they're doing what they need to do. And so we're helping them understand that because that's a huge transition.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

It's a transition for parents too. And which is why I wanted to ask you, Holly, like, how do you help parents understand? Because there's all these, there's all this practice, we'll say, with helping the student understand this transition because they're kind of the star of the show. But when it comes to the parents, this is a transition for them as well, because they probably weren't thinking that they would have to deal with this new dynamic in their relationship until the kid is maybe even graduated from university. So, how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

So we do have every school does have a dual enrollment contract and it does lay out the requirements of the expectations. Parents do need to understand that when the student is taking these college classes, the colleges view those students as adults. And so just as Lisa was saying, that the teacher and the counselor, we're monitoring when students are in our schools and if they're absent or if they don't do well on a test or that kind of thing, we're monitoring those things. The college is not. I don't want to say the college doesn't care. That that that's not really the right it's not that they don't care.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

They're not really incentivized that way. They have the money, you're good.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

That's right. And they're expecting what they're expecting at the college level is that you're an adult and you're going to behave as an adult and you're going to follow through if if you've got class on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 7 a.m., you're going to be there at that 7 a.m. class. So for parents, like I said, our school counselors do the best job that they can in informing the parents that the biggest issue, though, is that you're not going to be able to call up to the college and say to the professor and say, hey, what's going on? What's my child's grades? There's no student information system for the parents to be able to check like there is in K-12. So parents have to understand that their child, that goes back to that level of maturity, the child has to be able to advocate for themselves, speak to their professor. If they don't understand something, they can't just sit there and not say something. They can't just sit there and hope that it's going to get better. They're going to have to communicate with their professor andor let their parents know. Now they, it's good to let their parents know. But again, unless the adult student has signed a release of information, basically a FERPA release of information saying, I give permission for you all college to speak to my parents, then the college is not going to speak to the parents. And that's a huge change. I remember even taking when I brought my, my oldest, my daughter, off to college, and we were having the orientation, and the college was talking about that very thing that parents, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to let the, you know, cut the umbilical cord, you're gonna have to let things go because we're not gonna talk to you. And, you know, there were folks there that I think were quite surprised by that. I wasn't only because, again, I'm a school counselor myself. So I've had those different experiences. But yeah, it's on the student. The if the student doesn't give permission, the parents won't know. And that can be very, that can be a problem because if the child is not going to speak up, if the child's not going to go to their school counselor or their parent and say, I'm struggling, I'm happy I need some help. What can we do? Then as Lisa pointed out, they can end up failing. And then that that is on their, yes, it's part of their high school transcript, but it's on their college transcript.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

I think this is an important conversation, even for parents who don't suspect that their child may be a candidate for dual enrollment, because these sorts of dynamics, they just sneak up on parents, you know, and so you don't realize that you should be making your kid pushing them a little bit to nope, go ask that question to the person at the desk at say a doctor's appointment or whatever opportunity that parent and child may have. It's a good reminder. And I can see why, though, it's so extra important in this dual enrollment, you know, stratosphere, because it doesn't sound like it's very easy to unenroll. Am I right? In terms of dual enrollment. So if a student is like, oh, just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Once they sign up for classes and the term has started, then they're in. And there is a drop ad period that's early on, and you don't know at that time necessarily that, oh, I'm not gonna like this because it's so early. Struggling or whatever. So yes, that's very important that they know for sure that I'm ready for this. And you don't always know, but you need to. The important thing there is communicate with the school counselor as much as you can, even if you're full-time. The school counselor can help you through those kinds of things. Don't just wait. We tend to see some students just wait until it's too late, and then we can't intervene, we cannot intervene. And so we can do a lot, but again, they're in college, so we're gonna support them as much as we can, but we but in the end, it's the student taking that responsibility, communicating with their parents, regardless of if things are great or they're not, that's real important, and then communicating back with their counselor, their school counselor, that can really help a child. I recommend that a student, if you're gonna start dual enrollment, just try it. We have the classes on campus, and it's our teachers, but sort of qualified to teach college courses. And so that gives them an idea of just what it's like. And it's still very different at the school level than it is at the college because they still have see that teacher every day or every other day, and we can have a parent conference and all that. But try it with one or two courses rather than just, oh, I'm going full-time to enrollment. You hear students say, That sounds cool. I don't have to go to school, but you know, I'm gonna take four classes or five at the most. And they think that sounds easier than seven. Not necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

I'm really starting to see the full picture of why it's so important that everyone be honest in this endeavor. And I think it's such an amazing opportunity to save a family money, save a family time. You know, you get more experience earlier on in whatever field that you are ready to explore. And I was trying so hard to think of like, what would be an argument against this? And, you know, the best thing that I thought of was what about let kids be kids? How would you respond to that? Maybe a parent has a talented, mature youngster, but she just sees the parent sees the world as, you know, what it is and thinks, oh gosh, if I could just hold on to my childhood for a few more years and just have to pay for college, then maybe that maybe let it let it be that way.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

And you're absolutely right. Some students are very capable, but are just not ready. That's you need to let them be a child and a student and go through that. You you can tell, you can, especially when we start at sixth grade looking that potentially students could start their college career. You need we need we look at and parents need to look at, you know, do are they responsible? Are they doing their homework all the time? Are they are they making good grades in class? Are they are they not misbehaving? You know, sometimes they just they get bored and and they want to, you know, do something silly or something, you know. Well, college is serious. You need to be serious. So you gotta look at all those things. Parents. Their children better than we do. But we've had we have them when we get them to in high school, you know, we have them for four years. Now we the state of Florida is really promoting acceleration in many ways, not just dual enrollment. So you can graduate early. We have to look at the child, the individual, and see if they're ready. Is that readiness there? Are they responsible? Are they good communicators? Because they have to advocate for themselves. You cannot not speak up. I think that's one of the things that I keep hearing the most. Well, because we those those problems come to us, and then at that point it's hard to fix.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

It's really well, isn't that the truth? That's a sticky mess. Did you want to respond to the let kids be kids?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Yes. Because I do think that parents have to remember that parents have had the opportunity to be a high school student, middle school student, college student if they went to college, whatever the case might be. We as parents have to remember that we can't always live vicariously through our kids. And that's hard. Again, I'm a parent, been there, I know firsthand that we have to really stop and think what's best for them, not so much what we think they need or what we think is best for them. Now, there is some of that with being a parent. Obviously, you're looking out for the best interest of your child. But I've seen sometimes where students are kind of pushed into taking on more than they really are ready to take on. And then that becomes again, we've talked about the high school transcript, the college transcript. Yes, that affects that. But I think it also can affect them from a mental health perspective. And I think we have to take that into consideration as well. It's not just the are, you know, are weing responsible? Obviously, are we able to manage ourselves and manage our behavior? But it's also what about our mental health? Because that is critical. And we are seeing more and more students at younger ages really struggling with things like anxiety and depression, and whether that was due to COVID, whether who knows? But the reality is that we're seeing that. And so we would never want to see a child be put into a position where it's going to negatively affect them in that, in that way. And nor would a parent want to do that. But sometimes, as parents, sometimes we don't see the forest through the trees. And it's tough. I mean, being a parent is not easy. Right. It's it's tough. Yeah. But I think we've got to keep that in mind as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Well said. It's so funny because I really didn't expect this conversation to bring forth so many life lessons. You know, there was always like a lesson for the kids, right? But we're talking about really perspective, lessons and perspective for parents, for the whole family, and ones that, if you make it to the other side, benefit the whole community. And that's really beautiful. So thank you, ladies, for that unexpected gift. If parents listening want to get more information about dual enrollment, should they just talk to their child school counselor or is there a website they should go to?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

I would say start with the school counselor. They certainly can go on to the different college websites to get information there.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

The high schools have at the usually in the fall when we start school, they have parent nights where they talk about acceleration, dual enrollment, things like that. So they need to take advantage of that. When so the schools do a lot of that. And then anytime they want to maybe they couldn't participate in that, then definitely the school counselor, because they'll be giving information to students and they can meet with a counselor or and we get calls at the district level too. If a parent has has any questions, we certainly take those as well. But it's easier to get through the school to and get answers there. So but I the the college nights that they have, I think that would be the best if you and I think they do it. Some of them do a couple of them during the year and they have a college fair and all that. That's the time you can talk to the folks at the schools. And and the parents are very familiar with the school environment, so they're comfortable. So that's the best place to check it all out and shop it.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

I would definitely piggyback on that. Anytime the schools have uh some type of evening event, or even if they do it on a weekend, or I know some schools will actually have things in the summer sometimes during the day. Anytime the school is having some sort of an event, I just encourage, we encourage the parents to attend because it is their opportunity then to get that information, to ask those questions. And it can be so, so beneficial. You know, the we've talked a lot about college and the college transcript and all of that. And I think we would be remiss because, you know, not every student is going to get a four-year college degree. That's just not in their best interest. And students who are have those different intelligences where they are good with their hands or they are good with, you know, seeing spatial connections and things of that nature. There are opportunities for dual enrollment for those students too. So it's not just that four-year or two-year college going, it's also for students who are maybe more interested in learning a trade or getting some skills. When we have at George Stone Technical College, there's some great programs. And a student can become a welder. So let's say a student dual enrolled, so they're doing their high school coursework, but then they're taking maybe part-time some welding classes. When that student completes high school and then continues on in that welding program, they're going to make a nice chunk of change. And more so than I make with a master's degree, right? So I went four years to bachelor's, another three years for a master's, and I'm doing fine. It's okay. But when I look at what these welders are making, it's incredible. And we need welders. We need individuals who are heating and air conditioning and plumbers. And we need these people. And they make a very, very good living, can support their families, can change their family trees. And it's just amazing. And so I just wanted to make sure that the parents knew that too, that it's not just for students who are looking for a four-year or a two-year degree.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

What a good point to bring up. And what a good point to bring up to show up in person at every given opportunity, because that also allows the parent to have another perspective of that readiness element of the maturity by talking with the teacher or with the students' counselors and teachers. Again, thank you so much, ladies. I will link everything I can in the show notes, but hopefully listeners will be inspired to come talk in person. Excellent. Wonderful. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe and share. Voices United in Education is a production of the Scambia County Public School.