Ep 132 | Leadership & data: an unlikely power couple

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think education, teaching, learning is such a people business. It's all about how we connect with one another, how we support one another, how we provide feedback that helps us grow. And I think that's the important part for parents to understand is feedback is really important from them as well as from their teachers and principals and others in the school setting that they work with. And that feedback will help us move to that next level and continue to strive for that excellence that we really all want. I've not met a parent ever that doesn't want their child to be successful and successful at every level.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Welcome to the Voices United in Education podcast. Each week we showcase the teachers, administrators, and community members who go the extra mile to contribute to the success of every student in Escambi County. You'll meet the real people behind the titles and learn about the amazing resources to support every student's success. They say it takes a village to raise a child, but what does it take to raise the village? My next guest led the leaders. She was a coach and consultant for Studer Education, coaching superintendents, school boards, and educational executive teams. She also worked with district partners across the country to better develop environments for learning, working, and achieving. Today, she's going to share the meaning of the data they collect and the nuance within hard goals and broad intents when it comes to our public schools. Teaching the teachers and building community, Robin Larg. Thanks for being here. Thank you. So can you start by painting a picture of how a coach at Studer Education helps upgrade the schools in a way that parents would appreciate?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, and I think that's really important. Coaching is about creating a collaborative team, and teachers are coaches as well, and they create a team with their parents, their children, other professionals within the school building to really what can they bring to the table to support every child to be as successful as they can be at that particular time. And I think in coaching leaders, it's all about where are you right now and where do you intend to take your district in the leadership position you're in. So as a school principal, it would be different than an assistant superintendent for finance or the superintendent of a school district. But all of them have the same motive, and that's improvement. Improvement is not a spot on the map, but it's something that we constantly and consistently strive to achieve. And we do that through knowing where we start and where we intend to end or develop.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

So from a parent point of view, knowing that there's people like you out there collecting these resources and coaching the kids, the people who lead their kids, why would that matter to a parent? Do you think a parent would feel if suddenly tomorrow that went away?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, I think education, teaching, learning is such a people business. It's all about how we connect with one another, how we support one another, how we provide feedback that helps us grow. And I think that's the important part for parents to understand is feedback is really important from them as well as from their teachers and principals and others in the school setting that they work with. And that feedback will help us move to that next level and continue to strive for that excellence that we really all want. I've not met a parent ever that doesn't want their child to be successful and successful at every level.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

So it sounds like it's like a circle. You know, student education is helping to coach the educational leaders who are coaching the leaders below them, who are coaching the actual educators, the teachers who coach the children. And then students uses the feedback from the parents that they get from the children to circle back and coach the leaders. Did I get that right? You got it.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Absolutely. Everybody receives feedback and ultimately to achieve that positive goal. I think we do surveys, different surveys, parent survey, an employee survey, and then a support services survey that says are schools and departments supported in the way they should by different people within the district. And we always share that data. Each leader, we'll share their data with their team. So in a school, a principal would stand in front of their staff, and this is everyone cafeteria workers, custodial staff, administrative staff, everyone and teachers, and talk about what the data tell us about the job we do and how can we get better, and really getting information from them. So parents should expect that and know that that feedback is so important to ensuring that their school continues to provide the best opportunity for their child. And in one district where I worked, the principal was a gentleman, and we had been working with them for just a short period of time. And we're talking about sharing this data. And his was a bit uncomfortable, and he knew it. And he knew that the only way to get better was to say, yes, this is what the data says. So now what do we do differently? And so he shared shared with me, I want to tell you what this feels like. It feels like standing in front of an audience without your shirt on. And a female principal said, or trying on a bathing suit out in front of everyone. So it is kind of like that. And I think we have to understand that receiving a feedback and giving feedback has to be done with positive intent, which is to improve, not to belittle or anything like that, but to improve. And that's really what we're about.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

It's so interesting that you paint that picture because, for one, it's very funny and and uh good on that principle to continue to, you know, disclose the results of the survey, regardless of that. But I don't think that most people equate leadership and vulnerability together, but I could see where it would be important because if you don't, you continue to make the same mistakes that you've always made. And worse yet, those mistakes become incredibly institutionalized into the systems that build more systems upon them and more systems upon that. And then you're in this like deep, messy, chaotic mess.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yes. And I think too, it's you know, that positive atmosphere is gonna spread. We know from research that employees leave their bosses, they don't leave their job, they don't leave the building, they leave their boss. Same thing is true in a classroom, that teacher is the boss. So parents and students leave the boss, not the setting, not the programs, not the effort. So I think that's important for all of us to realize as well, and we're all bosses. And even when we talk about feedback and how to share feedback and how to use that feedback to improve, some of our partners have said they use it with their children and they use the ideas of how to give that feedback and with that intent for improvement. So, like if you have a child who's not doing homework, right? How do you do that? Do you say you have to do your homework? No. Okay, we need to do our homework because what is it you want to achieve? If you want this, you've got to make an A on that next test or a B on that next test or what. But it's really approaching that improvement in a different way and what we hope all people will do.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

That's interesting. And I think our listeners will be excited to know, having just listened to you already, that there will be a spring survey for the parents. Correct. So that they can participate in that.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And that survey is so important. It's not difficult and it's not lengthy. It's pretty quick. It's 25 questions, I believe, 25 items. And it really asks for your perceptions about the school where your child attends. So you should fill one out. If you have a child in elementary and middle, you should fill one out on each one so that those faculties and leaders have an opportunity to use your data in the most positive way.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Earlier you mentioned teachers are coaches. And I kind of put a mental bookmark there because I thought, I come from a family of teachers. I don't know that they saw themselves as coaches. Do you find that there is a barrier there when you're coaching these types of educational leaders in themselves seeing themselves as leaders? The leader themselves. Right. Like the idea of identity, of being a barrier between where you are now and where you want to be and where you want to grow. Because if it would require a person who sees themselves as a, let's say, a humble teacher, like I picture my grandmother was a one-room schoolhouse teacher in the prairie of Nebraska. And that is not made up. As soon as I said that, I'm like, that sounds like a movie plot. But no, that was our real life. And she would have never described herself as a coach or as a leader. She would just simply say, I'm doing the job, you know? And so, how do you, as a leadership coach, overcome that identity piece with folks like that?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And I don't think the title is an issue, but it's what do you do in your classroom? What are the actions you take? How do you interact with your students, with your colleagues, with your administrator, with your parents? And it's that interaction that is the coach-like conversation. Most teachers, if you listen, and probably your grandmother as well, was a coach, even if she did not see herself in that way. She was consistently providing that feedback that would help them get better, but also encouraging them: okay, now take the next step. Do this again. Here's what you need to do. And so it's providing that direction that helps all of us perform at higher and higher levels. We all rise to the level of expectation. So the important thing is have that high expectation, but not unrealistic. And so that is a fine line, and that is a learning for a lot of us as we uh work with individuals.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

What did you find in your time as a coach were some of the biggest barriers for progressing the leaders in their next steps?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

So I think of this one district that I worked with in Illinois, and it was a small district. Everybody knew everybody. Everybody grew up together. I mean, in my estimation, I thought they should have had such good, close working relationships. They did not. And so one of the elementary principals actually was an administrator in the prison system and returned to education as an elementary principal. Great school, high performing, but very, I would say, toxic and chaotic for the people who were in that building.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

I mean, that is a big pendulum swing.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yes. It's huge for him. Absolutely. When he told me that, I'm going, okay, now what are you gonna say? Right, right, right. Now, what's your advice? So we did some things with thank you notes, thanking people for doing a good job in very particular ways. Well, he was the by a humbug. He was uh, this is ridiculous. But the superintendent, this is what we're gonna do, all of us. And we're we had a little accountability system for it. So he did that, and then I kind of tear up on the story, sorry. But um, when one of his teachers retired, who had been at that school forever her entire career, he went to her home for a retirement party, and on the wall in a frame was a thank you note. And she told him that's the only one she had ever received. So I think the power of positive reinforcement is something now you don't do it if you're not sincere. That's the other part. It has to be sincere, it has to be specific. So why am I being recognized? Well, you're a good girl, thank you. No, you know, or like in some schools, after an open house, the principal will say, Thanks to everybody for a great open house. And then there are people sitting in the audience saying, I know five people who weren't even here, right? So it is that is the authenticity and the sincerity that's so important when we provide positive feedback in the form of thank you notes or just a thank you in the hall or in the cafeteria or as you're signing in in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yes. It's it's fascinating the contrast of thank you notes to use that very specific incredible story when that how that contrasts to like the goals of a district. Because when you think of leadership, it's a concept without hard edges. And then the goals, they have very hard edges. And there is a check mark, and it is either you're in the box or not in the box. So, you know, for people like the former prison warden, how do you weave in and out of those broad concepts while still providing the proof that, hey, this is gonna make the progress that we all want and need?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

We do believe that you have to have goals each year. You don't have to have a hundred. We do not recommend that, but a few goals that are very specific to the team or the school or whatever the situation might be. It might be a family. And then that you really together say, what are we gonna do to achieve these goals? What are our strategic actions? Now you might not call them that, but it is the what are we gonna do each day, each unit, each opportunity? What are we gonna do? And it's really paying attention to those actions on about a 45-day, 60-day period of time. Are we doing what we said we were gonna do? And how do we know? And the how do we know is what's our data that we're using to validate that we are working in the right way for the right goal? And it might be that as you're moving toward that goal the first 45 days, you say, oops, this this action is not getting us where we need to be. What do we need to do differently? And how do we know that that's what we need to try next? And I think families do that in a much more fluid way than organizations. It's much more difficult for us to shift gears. I think families have an easier time of recognizing when something's not working and try something different. But that is that is a critical piece of improvement. There's no destination on the map that says excellence, but it's that constant moving to that point. And I think that's the importance of it. And I think leaders have to understand that communicating with the people they work with and for is the critical part. And sometimes it's the way we say things. That's a whole other podcast, or the words we use and how we use them that help us get to where we want to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah. How do you decide what those little daily actions are that will positively impact the culture? Because you know, you're talking about families and how the families can make those successful shifts. And part of that is because it's ingrained in us from some biological level to be accepted by our tribe. And we don't always see our workplace as our tribe. We're like, I can leave you people, you know, like I gotta, I gotta go home to my family. And the other part is size. Families are usually smaller than organizations. So those shifts can more easily happen. You also share DNA. So, with all those ingredients missing from a corporation, how do you decide, okay, you know what's gonna shift our culture? Thank you notes. Like, how do you how do you come to that conclusion? Where do you pull that idea from?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Well, that's the coaching part on student education side because we do start with helping organizations determine what are their values, their core values. Those values then translate into what do I do every, what does every person in this district do every day that shows that they live that value? So that then becomes actionable and actionable in conversation. So that leader then, who was uncomfortable saying, You're not a very nice person, saying, I saw you talking with Mrs. Elliot the other day, and you were very open to her ideas, and I thought that was a great positive first step, or whatever it might be. But it's recognizing people for trying new things and being successful, or maybe not being successful, but at least trying. And what can we do to help you take that next step and be successful?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Finding the difference, the gap between this is what we say we are, this is what's painted on the wall in the hallway. Right. Compared to like our actual actions and how we speak to one another.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

I think it's interesting. So as a district level administrator, I used to visit schools, but I always thought it was interesting, it would be interesting to ask parents, and that's what our parent survey does. So when you enter a school, are you welcome? Well, if that is a low score, then the conversation with the faculty staff and leaders of that school is why are we not seen as welcoming? What do we not do that we could do? Is it the sign at the front door that says, do not enter without? I mean, you've we've all seen them. I have, yeah. Yeah, we've all seen them. So it's really, it's not that people intend, they're trying to protect the kids. We know that. But what could we do differently that would be a bit more welcoming? I volunteer at one of the elementary schools here, and in its history, it was the most unwelcoming because you could stand at the counter waiting for someone to help you for five to ten minutes, and nobody would ever even acknowledge that you were standing, even though there were people present, acknowledge it. That's no longer the case. So you see the difference and feel the difference. And was that one of the schools that prior to retirement you were working with? I was not. I had an opportunity to work with some elementaries. I am a high school person. So I was the director of high schools in the district for a period of time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And tell me about the impact of was it CAYs that you wanted to highlight?

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Yes. So that's where I volunteer. I am a Reading PAL, and it's just such a great opportunity. If you're interested in Reading Pals, look it up. It's on the United Way website. And you work with pre-K students, four and five-year-olds, which is just a blessing. I mean, it is a blessing. And they're hilarious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

They they say the weirdest things. Well, there's no filter. No filter.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

There's no filter. But they are so eager, they are so receptive, they are just engaging in every way. And as I go there every Friday morning to check in, there's always a friendly face at the window to check me in. I gotcha. I got you. And let me in. Is there anything you need? Is there anything you need? It's just those little things. But also so. To get to the room where the pre-K is, I go through the cafeteria. You do at CAYs go through the cafeteria regardless almost. But everybody smiles, speaks to you, and by everybody I mean the custodial staff. One gentleman he and I have become great friends. We share stories every Friday. And then so it's just a different place.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Leaders naturally leave a legacy, right? With the people that they've worked with. What do you hope to be known for?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

And that's a great question. And I always said the best job in the world is high school principal, and I do believe that. And I think it gives you such opportunity to affect change and the future of people and communities and the world. And I think that's what I want to be known for is that the people I touched, there was a positive impact. If it was nothing but you were kind to me.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

You were a principal at Pine Forest for 10 years, correct? Yes. Do you have any specific memories that stand out that pop up in your day-to-day?

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Oh, yeah. There are lots. And as a leader, you grow. I did not start where I finished. So when I began, I was pretty strict, pretty straightforward, pretty concrete. As someone once told me, you're not the person we want to write the thank you note to someone.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Because it would be thanks so much for what you did. Period. Yeah. And then your initials, not even like your format.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

But you evolve over time and you learn. You learn from experiences. I've had parents be very angry with me. You learn to accept that anger sometimes. Parents are their child's advocate. That's their job. And as school leaders, we should accept that and work with them. And sometimes that means letting that anger out or that frustration out, and then figuring out, okay, now what are we going to do? The most difficult situation I had was a a young female student claimed that one of our very young coaches, who was a weightlifting coach, had made inappropriate moves toward her. And her mom and dad came in very, as you can imagine, very upset. And in fact, we finally got to the truth. And the truth was she had been skipping class and he had filled out the appropriate paperwork and she was going to be suspended. And so she did this to kind of defray the fallout that was going to occur. And she admitted that there was, you know, there was no reason for the yes, the accusation. So and that's really hard because that young man, that was his career, his future was about to be changed forever.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I'm like, I can imagine navigating that as in your position as the principal, like trying to hold it together and trying to be a truth seeker. And you're a woman also. So you're like trying to be on the team of women and then, oh my gosh, what a what a mess.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah. Yeah. It's figuring out where that truth is and asking some good probing questions that don't seem directed at finding fault, I guess, is the best way to say that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Not a setup for the answer that you want, which kind of brings us full circle back to the honesty of these surveys and the data and you know, not looking for the answer that you want, but looking for the answer that you need, also known as the capital T truth.

unknown 25:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yes. That's right. And I think, you know, surveys can be tricky. So I had to take an employee and survey when uh was director, and one of another high school principal received remarks that she was never in the halls, never visited classrooms, all of that. So she took it on. She told me, that's my goal. This is what I'm gonna do. The next survey, they said she's never in her office. So surveys are tricky. Yeah. So it's figuring out, and they needed her to be in the office because they needed her to sign something or give her permission on something, or something pretty specific. So what she did was she decided, okay, I'm gonna take cafeteria duty. So I'm gonna always be in the cafeteria this entire length of time, and you can find me to sign that piece of paper or do whatever is needed. So solution finding is important for a leader, and it's not always the solution we anticipate.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Final question as we wrap up, because we were talking about legacy. What do you hope that Escambia County Public Schools becomes known for?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

I want them to be known for a high-performing district, and that doesn't just mean those high test scores on state standard assessments. What it means is that we provide to families what they need to help them raise their child to be the best person they can be and to be a good contributing member of our society. And that sounds very Norman Rockwell, very Christmas card-ish. But it really is true. That's what we're about. And I think it's those positive sentiments. We need people out there who speak positively, know how to do it, and want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Well said. Thank you so much for doing this. And it was really awesome meeting you. Thank you, Meredith. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe and share. Voices United in Education is a production of Escambia County Public Schools.