Ep 123 | NJROTC in 8th grade?

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Part of that has to do with the fact that we're co-located with Washington High School. And so our students can physically go over to Washington and participate in the course and then still remain students at Workmen. One of the things that I think is really cool about it is the fact that they are receiving high school credit while they're actually still students at Workmen in the eighth grade. So we're the only ones that have an eighth grade ROTC program.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Welcome to the Voices United in Education podcast. Each week we showcase the teachers, administrators, and community members who go the extra mile to contribute to the success of every student in Escambia County. You'll meet the real people behind the titles and learn about the amazing resources to support every student's success. Between the homework and video games, we all hope our kids will become confident and conscientious leaders. But of course, hope is not a plan. My next guests are the assistant principal at Workman Middle School and the Naval Science Instructor at Booker T. Washington High School. Today they're going to share how students who are taking advantage of the NJROTC unique partnership between the two schools are building themselves up to be strong leaders and getting college scholarships in the process. Community-minded and future-oriented service and stewardship, Dr. Heather Schultz and Master Chief John Spaulding. Thanks, guys, for being here. Thanks for having us. So, Dr. Schultz, tell us how the Washington and Workmen NJ ROTC collaboration is unique because we're in a military community. A lot of us know what ROTC is, but what makes this kind of arrangement special?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

So, this arrangement is very special. We are the only middle school in Nascambia County that actually has an ROTC program. Part of that has to do with the fact that we're co-located with Washington High School. And so our students can physically go over to Washington and participate in the course and then still remain students at Workmen. One of the things that I think is really cool about it is the fact that they are receiving high school credit while they're actually still students at Workmen in the eighth grade. So we're the only ones that have an eighth grade RATC program.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

And how long has that been established?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

We're in our fourth year.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Wow, that's incredible. And Master Chief, you're with the kids every single day. What kind of impact before and after have you seen with students?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

I think that just the growth of some of them. And I always like to say that this program is not for every student. I mean, what I try to teach to them is the same thing that I'm teaching to the high school kids. Coming over here today, I realize that these students are two years removed from being in elementary school. So I gotta remember that aspect of it. But I I still teach them the same thing. I use my high school kids. Four years we've been doing this program, we still got students that started my first year doing this. They're like what juniors now? I think juniors now. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Is that difficult to ride that line between elevating the student up to higher standards and remembering, as you put it, they're only two years removed from elementary age?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

When I first started this job, it was. Yeah. And most instructors will tell you the first year doing this is they still think they're in the military, and it's just like you can't do that. Being in this for this is like my 17th year doing it. I do remember that. I do remember where they came from. So I try to elevate them up, and sometimes I need to encourage them a little more than maybe I should, but they get my point.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

But yeah. So but I still remember that they are still basically children.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Do any specific kids come to mind when you are having a hard day and you think about like, okay, why am I doing this? Uh is there any specific before and after story, story of impact that you can think of and share?

SPEAKER_02 4:10

There was one student that I had, and I thought about him the other day. There's just about two or three of them, because I know we talked before about this. There's a young man, he came to us when he was, I think, a junior. And he was because I usually get all the first year cadets, and then Commander Brown gets second, third, and fourth year. But this young man, junior, and he'd had some problems coming up through like middle school, and he wasn't maybe a year or two older than the other kids, but junior year. So in the summertime, we have camps for these kids. So I asked him one day, I said, Would you think about going to leadership camp? And he goes, Well, I don't really. I said, I think you'd really do good. And he says, Oh, okay. So I sent him a leadership camp. Well, we have to do a physical training aspect second day we are at camp. Well, one of the instructors came over and he said, Mass Chief, he said, You got one of your students on the bus over there. So I went over and there was this young man, he was just crumbled. And he goes, Mass Chief, I love you, but you're just trying to kill me. I mean, he was wore out. He was wore out.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

But no, he he was all right. But he passed, he got his basically what they do, leadership, they get a silver cord, and he got that, and he was so proud of that. And that's what reminds me of why this program is there for kids like that. I mean, we got students that are like 4. you know, two GPA or something like that. But this kid was, I mean, he had a hard time growing up. But I mean, he graduated, he's done very I've seen him a couple times in the last few years, and he's done very well. But I mean, he's one of those kids is just that's why we get the program, is kids like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

So tell me more about leadership camp.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Leadership camp is what we ROTC does. I mean, each area around the country has it, and leadership camp is but they have they have two types, they have like basic leadership, which is like first year cadets go to it, and then they have leadership academy, which is like your juniors and seniors go to it. A lot of it is we do the same, teach the same thing we do throughout the year, but a little more aspect to it. And then they have like a graduation at the end, and they have like they pick the top platoon of battalion of of whatever group the kids in and then give individual awards out, and it's it's pretty good. And then they get what they call their silver cord that they for that's the leadership academy.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

When you say we teach them the same thing, I would love to uh hear more about that because as I alluded to in the introduction, parents want their kids to be strong leaders, but parenting is complex and hard. There's a lot of gears moving, right? A lot of spinning plates. And sometimes parents are I have you heard that saying, don't ask the fish how the water is, right? Because they don't know. Oh, there's water? What? I think that can happen to parents sometimes. They're too close to their kids to be able to have the full spectrum of influence that they want. You need those other mentors, those other figures in the community to come together and raise those kids up. So when you talk about what you teach in NJROTC is also reiterated in the leadership camp, can you paint a picture of what that is?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

We talk about the Navy, we talk about the military, we talk about like my first year cadets, they learn about emotions, we talk about attitudes.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Wait, emotions? That okay. You military and emotions. Those two in my mind are very contrasting. Talk to me about how you're teaching children about emotions.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

How their emotions are, how how to control their emotions, because we all know that teenagers nowadays is a lot of well, with emotions. So we try to tell them how to corral that emotion, how to talk to people without acting up in class, acting out in public, and a lot of it is what what I try to teach is as I call it social settings, because how to act out in public, how to act in class, how to act around teachers, because what I've noticed kind of going off I guess I'm going to the left here, but I mean students nowadays they'll walk by teacher and it it's just like we aren't even there. Now back in my day, we saw our teaching, we just clamped up because we I'm not gonna tell you know, but these kids they they just want you to be almost part of the problem, and that's what I try to talk to these kids about. Uh understand what your surroundings are and your emotions, attitudes, how you act to your fellow, you know, as students or cadets, and how you act to your teacher. Don't treat me like you would your kid sister. Sometimes they act like that, and I tell them all the time they'll they'll kind of you know ask me a question. I said, excuse me? I'm not I'm not home now. Yeah, you aren't home now, you talk to me, so but anyways.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

You know, you said earlier or in one of our earlier discussions about how you don't discipline children, but in a way, you're teaching self-discipline. By teaching them like where is the time and place. And I think that is a middle school lesson right there is time and place. Like we've gotten to that point, and that is what I speak to children about all the time. Like, listen, there's a time and place. This isn't it. Where might a better time and place be for that? So that sounds like exactly what you're teaching them. When you say emotions, it's kind of all of that, that attitude, that who you are as a human. Self-leadership.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

But you talked about the self-discipline, which is I'm glad you brought that point up. I I always ask, the first day of school, I always ask students, did you want to be in ROTC? It doesn't matter the eighth grade or whatever, do you want to be an ROTC? No, my mom wants to be in the air, or because they or a parent will tell me, I want them in ROTC because they need the discipline. I tell them, ma'am, that's not what ROTC is about. You're supposed to be the disciplinary, not me. That parent would sometimes we end up being that second parent, whether whatever Commander Brown or myself, because these kids have they don't have that at home. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

That's really interesting. When it comes to those lessons of self-leadership, time and place, as you said, Dr. Schultz, what do you think the benefit is with these messages getting in early because of this partnership between the two schools? Do you feel like it's more effective than the students simply getting these messages from the school at least at the high school level?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

I would say yes, because you're allowing the eighth graders to kind of immerse into the high school slowly. And so it's almost like a period of transition. And so now not only are they getting the messages about time and place, and they're experiencing, you know, going over to the high school and seeing the other kids in the hallway, and maybe some of them ride the bus in the morning with the high schoolers. And so I think it really lends itself to being a positive experience for those kids.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

You do tend to have like a more macro view where, you know, Master Chief's like in it, you know, in the micro. And you're more of the macro since the program's been going on four years. Have you seen any measurable changes in behavior, attendance outcomes, grades?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

I want to say yes, behavior, truly. Like I know we keep coming back to that discipline thing, but the kids that come back from ROTC, I mean, even today, they're in their uniform. There's a certain attitude about them. Um, maybe attitude is not the right word, but there's just a certain air about them. They're wearing their uniform. It's like they're proud. The teachers in the hallways at our school that workmen know, like, hey, that's an RTC student, and they have very high expectations of them. They'll reach out if there's any issues. Oh, well, you're an RTC, you know, you've got higher expectations. And so I I don't have data to support quote unquote a measurement, but just the the attitude and the feeling of how, you know, those students that come back on campus once they leave the high school. Because every day they show up at Washington High School for first period and then they walk back over to workmen for our first period. And so every day they're being immersed in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And so you sense that cultural shift happening in such a liminal age.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

You know, and so I could see the benefit of eighth graders dipping their toe in the water of higher social expectations, higher personal responsibility expectations being around older students because you're such an in-betweener in eighth grader. Yes. You could easily act like a sixth grader, yes, or easily act like the ninth or tenth grader. Absolutely. You know, just from a developmental standpoint. And I love that you brought up that ROTC students, they have an air about them. And I so, Master Chief, I wanted to ask you about that because I always found military students have a leg up academically, socially. That was my observation from being at Offit Air Base in Nebraska, the the ROTC students there, you know, I would and even just the military kids who weren't in Rotsi. I felt like, oh, they they know things. You know, they're so much more worldly. They carried themselves in a way that I admired. Do you think that kind of transformation is possible with students who participate in the program but aren't from a military family and do not plan to go into the military?

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yes, I think it is. I mean, because as we talked before, some of these kids just want a group to belong to. And I mean, you got like football, you got basketball, and something, you know, they kind of go that. But these kids, we got some kids that they that's why they come to school that they love ROTC and they they do pretty good in it. And some of them will go to the military. Last few years we've had quite a few go to the military. But some of them don't, some of them go to college, and that's what we hope for. But yeah, I mean, we've got kids that come in and they like real meek when they first start, and after a couple of years, they start blossoming, they start getting involved because we try to get them involved in things. And like what? Well, like afternoon af like we do afternoon activity, we do quarantine, we do air rifle, we do drill. Is it a challenge? Yes. It's trying to get kids to get involved in this. Some kids they do, some kids they don't. Sometimes you see the same kids. You see the same ten, fifteen kids, and the rest of them will come they might come for a couple days, but then they don't come again because they don't like the discipline of drill. They don't like to be told by another cadet because that's the whole function of us is getting that cadet leadership to take ownership and take charge. That's why when you get these juniors and seniors, that's who we rely on. You guys, hey, you got it. You're gonna take over. I'm gonna guide you, be a mentor, but you guys need to step up and start teaching these younger kids how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I see that even with the eighth grade cadets. There was a day I was trying to line them up to take a picture, you know, and I'm not an ROTC person. I've not been in ROTC, so I don't always know the language. So here I am trying to line them up. Like, okay, aren't you at like attention? And one of the eighth graders, and and they put their, I was like, Your hat, what's it called? And I think it's called a cover. Okay. So I learned that it was called a cover. But so I'm like, okay, put your stuff. And so they're teaching me. So not only are they teaching me, but then one of the young cadets, she goes like checking their formation, what they're looking like, how their hands are, moving their feet. I mean, getting them in that appropriate posture. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. Like, I mean, that was an eighth grader. She just took it upon herself to go over there and line them up and do what needed to be done. So even just even in the eighth graders, you see that leadership starting to come out.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Wow. And that's attention to detail. I mean, think about a parent being like, you walked over, you stepped over the dirty laundry 10 times. Could you just notice that it's on the floor and pick it up? Like I'm thinking about the at-home practical application of noticing these details and taking initiative, which is pretty awesome. And every parent would want that. But I think there are some parents out there who have a hesitation about enrolling their kid in an ROTC program because they think that it's just, well, you're grooming my kid to be in the military. Do you want to address that?

SPEAKER_02 15:54

No, that's very true. I mean, I've and we talked about, you know, the parent wants the uh student in ROTC because of discipline. Well, that's not my job. But we had teacher night here, we had teacher night about four or five years ago when the parent walked in and I said, Well, we're about scholarships. And she looked at me like, what? I said, Yeah. I said, that's what ROTC is about is scholarships. We get recruiters in there to talk to the class because we want the, you know, to have a plan after they graduate. And we usually tell them, if you want a scholarship, start thinking about it, about your sophomore year. And but don't wait till your senior year, because I've we've had seniors come back after Christmas break and go, hey, uh, you think you can get me a scholarship? Well, no, you're about a year and a half too late. But scholarships, I know darn well they leave money on the table every year because kids don't want the scholarship. A few years ago we had two cadets that all they had to do was sign on the daughter line. They could have gone to a college, but they didn't want to go because it was it was up north someplace. They didn't want to go. All they do sign your name, they would have, you know, full ride. But oh yeah. Most of the time you can get a four-year scholarship. We've had quite a few we've had a few students go over like UWF, and they don't get a scholarship, but what they'll do, they'll pay for like the first year, and then they'll go join to either, I think they got Air Force and Army over there, either join one of those and work their way up and show those instructors what they want to do, and then they'll get picked up the next year for a scholarship. And we've had two or three of them get commissioned that way over there. Tell us kids there's money out there, but you gotta earn it. The kicker is once you say, well, if you get a scholarship from us, you have to obligate service. What? Oh no, no, no. I don't want to do that. Because I put on the board yesterday about going to college and and basically if you you know you do your you obligate your time and and then you want to resign your commission, I said it was like 27 years old.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

And you got your benefits, you got your, you know, there's probably a good chance you're gonna get your master's degree. And the well, I I don't. It's like there you go. But a lot of best.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Another door open for them. And I think that's what's important.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

But if parents know that, that's what I'm saying. Like the my what listeners didn't hear is my jaw dropping when you were telling me that the the student decided not to get a four-year full ride scholarship. My parents would have punished me severely if they knew that I had just been like, eh, shoulder shrug, I I'm not gonna do that. And to your point about maybe UWF, that is not always a full ride scholarship. But if they can get a first year covered and then they can enlist and graduate a commissioned officer with not having the rest of the school pay for, that's a huge deal because you're talking about graduating debt-free with a job and a path, like an actual like trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Well, that's what, and and again, as I said, that's what gets them is that obligated service. Because I don't know, I don't be honest with you, I can't, I don't know if it's like four or five years they have to obligate that service.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Do they get years of service added for participation in ROT? Like for their years of service. Like if you were to go to the Naval Academy, you get years of service.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Because you did a ROTC in high school? Mm-hmm. No.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I thought they did.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Okay. I thought that was one of the benefits.

unknown 19:10

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

No. If you do like you go like the regular, you enlist like in the Navy, we can do a letter of recommendation. And they can go in instead of going as an E1, they can go in like as in if they graduate boot camp, gradu come out as an E3.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Okay. And it's a big salary difference. So they get a lot of different things. Okay, there is a benefit to it. It's just not your service.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

So anyway, but yes. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah, that that's yeah, that's a bit of a difference. So talk to me about a day in the life, because you know, now that we've kind of mythbusted a little bit, your parents are not dropping their kids off at ROTC to fix them and have them act right. The kids obviously have lots of agency when it comes to choosing their path, because the one student, as you gave as an example, decided not to do that. So now let's talk about like what is the obligation for the student and the parent. Because I think that can also be an under-discussed ingredient in any sort of extracurricular activity for a student, right? Like the parent, maybe they're not totally sold on it. Their kid wants to try something. Parents thinking, oh yeah, remember those piano lessons I paid for and I drove you to, and now you don't play piano? Like this is the mind of perhaps a parent listening right now. So kind of paint a picture of what the activities are, what time do they have to get to school? Are there extra things that they need to be transported to, et cetera?

SPEAKER_02 20:36

At at beginning of the year, we send paperwork home. I mean, the kid enrolls, say eighth grade enrolls, and we usually get a list in the summertime. I think right now I I think we're down to like 18 students, and we started out with about 26 or whatever. And again, it's just because kids, you know, roll out.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

It's not for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yep, it's not for everybody. But we never charged a fee, but we charge a small fee at the beginning of the year for like insurance for name tags. The uniform that is given to the student doesn't cost them anything. A lot of parents say, Well, how much that the uniform is gonna cost me? I said, it's not gonna cost you a dime. But if you don't bring certain items back, it's gonna cost you quite a bit, especially when that young man or young lady go to graduate and they see a bill from Mass G. Spaulding from three years ago for like $300 for uniforms. Oh, you never bought it back. So, but no, they get dropped off. We start school at 8 30 and we go till 9 about 9 25. Now I usually take them back about 9, 9, 10, 9.15. We got different athletes. I mean, usually we do drill on one day, we have uniforms on Wednesday, which is today. We do physical training twice a week, and we do academics. And we were supposed to do the Veterans Day Parade, but we got rained out, so we didn't make the students go to that.

unknown 21:56

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

So that would be kind of part of the extra things that you mentioned. Earlier, you try to involve them in?

SPEAKER_02 22:01

There's two events that are the mandatory. One was the Veterans Day Parade, and another one is coming up in January. It's called the Area Manager Inspection. That's our area manager. And he comes over and does inspection of our program. Basically he's looking at uh Commander Brown myself, but he looks at all the students.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Oh, the students come and tell us it's inspection day, it's inspection day. And I'm like, okay, that's okay. I don't know. I didn't always know what it was until they started telling me. Like, we have to do all this stuff. And I'm like, wow, that's crazy. I love your perspective being so fresh. Yeah, like so, like, I don't know all this stuff. So they come in and I'm like, well, what's inspection day? What do you have to do? And they start telling me all the things and they get real excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

That's interesting. It sounds like from your perspective, you're seeing a lot more engagement. Like the kids are plugged in, they're with it a little bit more. And from your perspective, it's like they have more opportunity. Did am I summing summarizing that about right?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Absolutely. Like he mentions the PT days. They have these little yellow navy shirts and shorts. I guess it's the same thing you're the Navy. Y'all gotta tell me about this language here. I guess it's the same thing you're like adults wear for PT. So they come looking like adults in their little PT uniforms and they are sweaty and I'll say and they come in every morning and say hi to me. And I'm like, well, how how was PT today? And they're like, oh, it's great. And I'm like, I would not have been saying PT was great in the eighth grade, but they love it.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Well, as we wrap up, are there any final thoughts from either of you that you want to leave parents with regarding the potential for their kids for leadership development, the program in general?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

I just I think it's an incredible opportunity that not many people are aware of that we do offer this. Again, it's not for everybody, but it just opens doors, allows for another thing for students to try to get involved in. The students that we have, it's it's just incredible that they get up early. I mean, it I can't describe how positive the experience is and how much it helps these students grow and change. And if if it's not for everybody, that's okay too. That's what it's not the end of the world. If you decide, you know what, this isn't for me, it's no big deal. You know, it's just another chance to try something to interact with your peers, to dip your toes in the high school, to get some leadership skills. It's just it's just an incredible opportunity. And I'm just really excited that we're able to get this information out so that more people can be aware of what we got going on.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

I think they grow up a little faster. And parents probably need to get a little more involved with their what I've seen. And and when I talk about eighth grade, I know we're talking about eighth grade stretchment that there is some students that are yeah, the adult in the family, and we see I know you see a lot of it, and I see a lot of it, and sometimes it's just like you kind of go a little easier and sometimes on that student. But um, it's a good program. Be honest, I don't know where our NGRTZ is going to go here in the next few years, but things are changing. I mean, that out of our out of my league, so anyways. But no, it's a good program.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Well, thank you so much for investing in the lives of kids and being able to collaborate in a way that really is for the kids. I think that's really special. So I appreciate what y'all are doing and that you took time to come here and share.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Thank you. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe and share. Voices United in Education is a production of Escandie County Public Schools.